Jacob & Leanna Ramsey of Hurricane Creek (Toomsuba), Lauderdale County, MS

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jonnie Ramsey Brown on October 17, 2009 at 7:38pm

Attached is Leanna's death certificate and my grandfather William's death certificate. The informant for William is Minnie Thomas, aka Minnie Ramsey, his sibling. Thanks, you guys. This group is amazing!

Attachments:

• Leanna Ramsey - Death.pdf, 1.3 MB
• William Ramsey - Death.pdf, 1.1 MB

Permalink Reply by Kate Steere on October 18, 2009 at 8:35am

good morning Jonnie-

I found Richmond Ramsey in 1900, born in 1833, in NC, married to Hanna for 45 years, they had 13 children, 8 were still living in 1900. They lived in Daleville, Lauderdale County, MS.

Attachments:

• Richmond_Ramsey_1900.jpeg, 262 KB

Permalink Reply by Jonnie Ramsey Brown on October 18, 2009 at 9:56am

Good morning, Kate!

This Richmond Ramsey is a good possibility for a relative/community group of Jacob Ramsey, looking at Richmond's date of birth and where he is born. MS death certificates are not available until about 1912 or so; I will order it to see if it provides information about parents. Any other suggestions?

Permalink Reply by GeneJ on October 20, 2009 at 3:32pm

Hi Jonnie and Kate:

Viewed the homestead documents Jonnie uploaded—truly treasures! Thank you for providing this information.

National Archives, military archives, interview of Bernice Jackson, assistant archivist, 20 Oct 2009 (telephonic); regarding pension application of Jacob Ramsey (13 Jan 1890, no. 749,838, filed from Mississippi); asked if there was a way to access indexes _organized by surname_ across different units of U.S. Colored Infantry. Explained challenge searching for Jacob Ramsey with service in _any_ “Colored Infantry” unit before incurring cost of ordering a pension file that might not be relevant to our Jacob.
(a) Bernice confirmed the designation “U.S. C. Infantry” intends “United States Colored Infantry” (commonly now, USCT (“Colored Troops”).
(b) Bernice viewed the Footnote pension card (T289); we discussed what seemed lack of cross reference (or indexing of) the USCT service records at Ancestry.com or Footnote.com.
End of this week or early next week, Bernice Jackson will research to determine if NARA’s military service databases provide better index of men “Jacob Ramsey” who served in the “Colored Troops.”

Items related to this NARA inquiry follow and/or are attached.

Attached are two Civil War index cards reporting application by one Jacob Ramsey. From these two cards, we know that one Jacob Ramsey said served “C 56th U.S. C Infantry” and made application in 1890 from Mississippi. No certificate was granted so there probably was no pension granted under the application.

"Organization Index to Pension Files of Veterans Who Served Between 1861 and 1900," index card for Jacob Ramsey (C 56th US C Infantry); digital image, Footnote.com (http://www.footnote.com : accessed 17 Oct 2009), cites National Archives micropublication T289 (according to the units in which the veterans served) , roll 555; pension application dated 13 Jan 1890, no. 749,838, filed from Mississippi; no certificate number reported; this card indexed as “State: [BLANK]; Arm Of Service: [Blank]; Regiment: [Blank]; Company: [Blank]”

“War Pension Index: General Index to Pension Files, 1861-1934,” index card for Jacob Ramsey (C 56th US C Infantry); digital image, Ancestry.com (http://www.ancestry.com : accessed 17 Oct 2009), cites National Archives micropublication T288; pension application dated 13 Jan 1890, no. 749,838; no certificate number reported.

A pension wasn’t granted, at least not as applied (thus no “certificate number” is reported); doesn’t mean this Jacob Ramsey didn’t serve. For example, it’s possible the unit “C 56th US C Infantry” was misstated in the application; perhaps that units rolls weren’t accessible or had become organized differently at the time the application was made. Because there was no certificate awarded, there was no opportunity to learn a date of death from the Footnote.com index card.

Working the source:
(1) There was a unit, “56th U.S. Colored Infantry”; there were also such units closely numbered:

Among others, including Wikipedia entry, see Bennie J. McRaie, Jr. and LWF Communications (Trotwood, Ohio), “U.S. Colored Infantry Regiments” (http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/USCI_HS.HTM : 17 Oct 2009), entry for:
“56TH U.S. Colored Infantry Regiment - St. Louis, Missouri - *3rd Arkansas Infantry (African Descent),” and also:
“55TH U.S. Colored Infantry Regiment - Corinth, Mississippi - 1st Alabama Infantry (African Descent),” and
“58TH U.S. Colored Infantry Regiment - Natchez, Mississippi - 6th Mississippi Infantry (African Descent),” and
“66TH U.S. Colored Infantry- Vicksburg, Mississippi - 4th Mississippi Infantry (African Descent),”
“52ND U.S. Colored Infantry Regiment - Vicksburg, Mississippi - 2nd Mississippi Infantry (African Descent),”
“50TH U.S. Colored Infantry Regiment - Vicksburg, Mississippi - 12th Louisiana Infantry (African Descent),” and so on and so forth.

(2) “56th U.S. Colored Infantry” was reportedly raised at St. Louis, Missouri. Unit suffered devastating cholera losses; historic memorial and much information seems available

a. Young Messengerrzz, “56th U.S. Colored Infantry” (http://www.youngmessengerrzz.com/id162.html : accessed 18 Oct 2009); includes photographs of the memorial at St. Louis. From the source, “The 56th Regiment was originally organized at St. Louis as the 3d Arkansas Infantry Regiment (African Descent)….”

b. “African Americans in Missouri” (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~moandres/56th1.htm : accessed 18 Oct 2009)

3. We know our Jacob survived to 1890, based on his homestead documents papers, Jacob was clearly resourceful enough to have both known about the pension process and to have made application. There seems, however, another man at Mississippi, “Jake Ramsey”; he was enumerated in the 1890 U.S. Federal Census, Veteran’s schedule, Coahoma County, Mississippi. I’ve downloaded the image of that census sheet, but can’t access it until I again (that makes three times now) reinstall Adobe (every time Microsoft updates it’s Net framework, I have to reinstall Adobe, ugh!).

I’ve downloaded the images of the two civil war pension cards and the 1890 census sheet, but can’t access those until I again (that makes three times this week) reinstall Adobe (every time Microsoft decides to update my Net framework, I have to reinstall Adobe, ugh!).

Edited

Permalink Reply by Jonnie Ramsey Brown on October 20, 2009 at 9:00pm

Wow, GeneJ, your resource for militiary information is amazing! I went to the National Archives today here in DC and viewed the records for Jacob Ramsey, C56 US C Inf. I don't believe this is my Jacob. I did copy some of the files just in case but there is nothing about the Jacob Ramsey in these records that leads me to believe that this is my ggrandfather. I know for a fact that my Jacob lived in Toomsuba, Lauderdale County Mississippi from at least 1870 until he died in February 1909. His death is recorded in a family bible. The papers I copied indicate that this Jacob was from Coahoma County MS and he could not prove he was in the Civil War; therefore he was not granted a pension. Let me know your recommendations for how to proceed next. Thanks!

Permalink Reply by GeneJ on October 21, 2009 at 7:59am

Hi Jonnie:
Thank you for providing the additional information. Although I'm sorry it isn't the record of our guy, hope you feel ruling out this Jacob "Jake" Rasmey and his Civil War records was worth the effort.
.
I do have some suggestions for how to proceed next; will post in a new thread to your challenge.

Uploading here the now outdated (ruled out by additional information) items, including Civil War pention cards (NARA T288 and T289) and the 1890 U.S. Federal Census scedule.

Thank you again for going the extra mile. --GJ

P.S. Belived you have access to the resources!

Attachments:

• Ramsey, Jacob, CW Pension Cd_ancestry_C 56 USC.pdf, 67 KB
• Ramsey, Jacob, CW Pension Cd_footnote_C 56 USC.pdf, 375 KB
• Ramsey, Jake, 1890 Coahoma County, Mississippi.pdf, 407 KB

Permalink Reply by GeneJ on October 21, 2009 at 9:45am

Hi Jonnie:

You wrote, "Were they free prior to the civil war? Were they slaves? Who was their owner? Did they reside in MS, AL, NC or elsewhere prior to 1870," and, separately, "I've always wondered if these [various Rasmeys] were relatives or other ex-slaves from the same plantation assuming the same surname--if the Ramseys were slaves."

From the standpoint of "cluster research," I'm of the opinion the Ramsey households at Township 7, Lauderdale County, Mississippi at 1870 are relevant to your family history. Given that some reside next to each other and/or given names appear more than once, I suspect some of those Ramseys are family members. There is separately a Harwell connection [exchange between you and Kate about cousin Charlie Harwell (1880 census)] to Jacob and/or his wife.

(1) From a single 1870 census sheet (including last entry on prior sheet) census sheet we find Polly Ramsey (ae 50) and Jacob Ramsey (ae 40) both b. Virginia (they reside two doors apart). Harrison Ramsey and Richmond Ramsey (aes 35 and 25) were both born Alabama, as was Jacob Ramsey’s wife. Among just those households, Jacob Ramsey’s two eldest children, Annis/Annie and Chana, aes 8 and 5, are b. Alabama, as is also the Melissa Ramsey [prior sheet] who is also ae 5.. The next eldest children (William[1] and Mollie [Richmond’s apparent dau.]) were born at Mississippi.

(a) Using a research log, we want to document the working theory set up by the 1870 census – at Virginia (at least 1820 and 1830), at Alabama (at least 1835 and 1845-1865 [note relevance to Civil War period), at Mississippi, 1866-current date). Within the four households we’ve mentioned, we find reference to Smiths b. NC (only interesting from standpoint of later records).

(b) If these Ramseys were “freedmen,” 1870 census notes (births of children) suggest they became freedmen at either Alabama or Mississippi.

(c) We have children from the cluster born at Alabama—can we learn more precisely where at Alabama those children were born?

(d) When first children were born at a place, we also look to see if a marriage (or delayed marriage) was recorded at that place. Can we find evidence of Jacob’s marriage at Alabama? Might we find evidence of a delayed marriage record at Mississippi? Do we find evidence of Richmond's marriage at Mississippi?

About these four questions, also need to ask:
i. How does information about Ramseys at Township 7, Lauderdale County, Mississippi in 1870 relate to this “working theory.”
ii. Information from later or separate records conflicts with some of this information – we should specify those conflicts, noting each source.
iii. Information from later or separate records may provide more clues to places at Virginia (the given name Richmond has not gone unnoticed) and Alabama – we should specify those clues and noting each source.

Before my computer fiasco, had I’ started notes about the record groups relative to items above. I’ll look over those notes now to see if I can add a few more items; plan to post separately. In the mean time, hope you’ll comment if you seem my notes.

More to come. --GJ

Attachments:

• Ramsey, Jacob, 1870 Lauderdale County, MS.pdf, 642 KB
• Ramsey, Melissa, 1870, Lauderdale County, MS.pdf, 642 KB

Permalink Reply by GeneJ on October 23, 2009 at 9:04am

"Toomsuba" trivia from, Henry Sale Halbert, "Choctow Indian Names in Alabama and Mississippi," Alabama Historical Society, Transactions of the Alabama Historical Society ([?]: Alabama Historical Society, 1899) 3: 71; digital images, Google Book Search (http://books.google.com : 23 Oct 2009), "Toomsuba--a creek in Choctaw County, 'Tusubi,' blue pigeon hawk, or, as it is commonly called, the blue darter."

Permalink Reply by robyn anderson on October 23, 2009 at 11:01am

hi my name is robyn and i do believe i have found more info for you . there is page dedicated to your great grandparents .

Permalink Reply by GeneJ on October 23, 2009 at 11:07am

Hi Robyn:
Might you post here the link to, or reference for, the Ramsey information you have located?

Possibly it is, "Descendants of Jacob and Leanna Ramsey." I have assumed our member, Jonnie Ramsey Brown, was one of the hosts of the "2006 Ramsey Family Reunion" called out on that page. [See entry below the subtitle, "About Descendants of Jacob and Leanna Ramsey."]

Thank you for supporting Most Wanted! --GJ

Permalink Reply by Jonnie Ramsey Brown on October 23, 2009 at 9:12pm

Hi GeneJ and Robyn,

Yes that is my site. I have enjoyed putting it together and continue to add to it often. And I hosted our family reunion in 2006 in Atlanta. Our next reunion takes places in Meridian, MS in 2010 and I really want to bring the family some new information on the lives of Jacob and Leanna Ramsey prior to 1870! You guys have really got me excited!

Permalink Reply by GeneJ on October 23, 2009 at 11:04am

Lauderdale County Department of Archives and History to GJ, information supplied telephonically by Ward Calhoun, 23 Oct 2009, about archives and records held by/published by this organization; group has two websites, "Lauderdale County Department of Archives and History," and Internet site with the same title using "Kithandkinofthesouth.org" domain, Lauderdale County Department of Archives & History, Inc. : Meri.... This organization is a repository; holdings include "Family Histories and Research Notes" contributed over the years by genealogists; see the existing collection, "The Book Shelf." [There is one Ramsey manuscript, "Ramsey.pdf," titled "John, Mathew & Ambrose Ramsey"; concerns Revolutionary era Ramseys of Chatham, NC]
Ward would love to add a manuscript about the Ramseys in this challenge to their collection!
I described the Ramsey 1870 census notes to Ward, indicated we hope to identify the earliest known county record of the family (or cluster) at Lauderdale County.
While this organization has the actual records, the Circuit Clerk (Donna Jill Johnson) has the indexes to the county's marriage and court records. The Chancery Clerk (Carolyn Mooney) has indexes for deeds and mortgages, estates, adoptions, guardianships, etc.
I'll make a couple of more calls today.

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