Douglas surname DNA

My brother got his DNA tested and a distant cousin did also and they both matched. The surname is Douglas. They also matched perfectly with several Gordons. So I would like to find out where and when the change took place. And any other information I can find out.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by William Douglas on August 19, 2009 at 1:32pm

This is a useful discussion. We have been looking at this for some time now, but not getting any closer.

I am hoping the Douglas DNA project takes us a bit closer. Meanwhile, I will point a few folk to this page as they may find it helpful.

William Douglas
The Douglas Archives

PS Please have a look at our community. Your contribution would be very welcome

Permalink Reply by John G Douglas on August 19, 2009 at 4:48pm

The most promising research into these questions, as far as I have seen, is being done by a small team who call themselves Crispin Cousins, after one of the significant surnames in medieval Europe. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crispincousins/ The I1 haplogroup, which includes Gordons and us few misplaced Douglases (among others), appears to have come into England and Scotland by way of the Norman Invasion. That is, our I1 forebears were once French-speaking Scandinavians. (Most Douglases are in the R1 haplogroup.) My current hunch is that a Gordon changed his name to Douglas after being awarded Douglas lands by the Conqueror. (I am currently slogging through David C. Douglas's The Norman Achievement, which was recommended for background reading by Don Douglas, one of the Crispin Cousins contributors. I'm a little embarrassed that I waited until retirement to start learning medieval history.)

Permalink Reply by Don Douglas on November 27, 2009 at 11:43pm

Greetings, Folks, I'm new to this board but have acquaintances here from other BBS discussions.
If I can add a few observations...

The name Dubh Glahs was in use in Scotland for roughly three centuries before the Norman Invasion and four centuries before the Abbot of Kelso signed over lands in the Dubh Glahs clan area to the son of a Flemish immigrant who came to be known as William de Douglas (or similar spelling). Although the exact parentage of his father is in dispute, it is generally agreed that he was Flemish. Therefore, he was not related by blood to the majority of people who bore the name Dubh Glahs.

Among the closest associates of William de Douglas were the Murrays. Like Douglas, Murray had come from Flanders and was granted land, title and administrative authority by King David I and had assumed the local surname as clan chief* and went on to construct castle and town in Norman fashion. The king wanted help from the Norman/Flemish invaders/immigrants in solidifying his control over the country by incorporating their feudal organization. Freskin de Moray was Flemish, but the name Freskin is from Friesland, now a part of the German state of Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony). Both William de Douglas and Freskin de Moray were associated with Normans (i.e., Scandinavians) including Bruce, Stewart and Baliol.

There is dispute among historians as to the origin of Rollo, the leader of the band of Vikings who conquered Normandy. The scientific archeological opinion appears to divide along nationalist lines, with Norwegians believing he was from Norway and the Danes believing he was from Denmark. Some maintain that he was based in the main Viking commercial town of the time, Hedeby/Haddeby/Haithabu, across the bay from Schleswig. It is probable that his group included Jutes, Danes, Frieslanders, etc. Looking at the DNA haplotype distribution, it is very probable that all of them were I1.

I only know my paternal ancestry back to 1660 in America and for all I know my most distant ancestor could have been an Angle, a Saxon, a Hull or a Gordon, a Norwegian sailor who jumped ship in Scotland and assumed the name of Douglas, or a Norman Englishman who, after moving to Scotland, assumed a Scots name as others are known to have done. That said and making no grander claim, I think it's possible to make a convincing case that William de Douglas was most probably of I1 Y-DNA.

It seems doubtful to me that a Gordon took the name of Douglas, but rather that Douglas and Gordon have a common ancestor on the continent and assumed two different names in Scotland. At the time of the arrival of the father of William de Douglas, believed by many to be Theobald the castellan of Ypres, the Flemish constituted the largest immigrant group in Scotland (Barrow).

Regards and apologies for being long-winded about it,
Don Douglas
Kreis Osnabrück, Niedersachsen, Germany

* "In the county of Galloway, for instance, the administrative authority was, up to the twelfth century, only regarded as a fiction of paternal authority; and no man sent by the king to govern this country could exercise his command in peace, unless he was accepted as head of the family, or chief of the clan, by the people whom he was to rule." Augustin Thierry, History of the Conquest of England by the Normans, a free download from Google Books. (Castle Douglas is in Galloway County.)

Permalink Reply by John G Douglas on November 28, 2009 at 9:13am

Thank you for your succinct, clear-thinking summary, Don. I appreciate the discipline you bring to these questions.

--John Douglas
FTDNA 29243
YSearch VGGNK

Permalink Reply by William Douglas on November 28, 2009 at 11:48am

A small point of accuracy -
Castle Douglas is in Kirkcudbrightshire, a county in the area of south-west Scotland known as Galloway. The local authority area is Dunfriess and Galloway.

William
www.douglashistory.co.uk

Permalink Reply by William Douglas on August 20, 2009 at 10:19am

I have just found a disused discussion group on this topic:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/douglasgordonDNA/messages/75?viscount...

Permalink Reply by Don Douglas on November 28, 2009 at 3:20pm

Thanks for that link. By the way, Beryl refers in an old post (2005) to a member of the Douglas DNA group who traces his ancestry to William de Duglis and is R1a. Gustav O. Douglas also provides a genealogy back to the earliest times and is I1. It can be found by going to his Web site and clicking on Descendants of Andrew Douglas.

I have no idea which is correct, but since historians agree that the first William de Douglas was of Flemish descent and associated with Normans, Scandinavian DNA seems like a good likelihood. The Flemish Douglas family was thoroughly Scottish and established at the head of the clan by the time his great-grandson, Sir James the Good, fought alongside his friend and fellow Viking descendant, Robert the Bruce.

Permalink Reply by Don Douglas on November 28, 2009 at 4:22pm

This post seems to disappear. Gremlins?

Permalink Reply by Jane Miscavich on June 14, 2010 at 11:05pm

Don, Although it's been awhile, I'm still checking all the sites I can find. I noticed your comment about "Gremlins". Well we haven't disappeared, just hit a brick wall. I have printed up your post of November 27th and put it in my files. It is very interesting. Thanks. I also follow your posts on CrispinCousins. Keep it up. You are more closely related to our interests that most and therefore more interesting to us -- John Goodwin Douglas and myself.